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	<title>Comments on: Ethics among the doomed</title>
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	<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/</link>
	<description>dispatches from Canada's capital</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: .</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-52891</link>
		<dc:creator>.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-52891</guid>
		<description>But this has always been one of Weaver's strengths. Without ever dumbing the issue down, he keeps it as simple and understandable as he can.

He agrees the crux of his book comes down to a single alarming sentence on page 28: "People have simply no idea how serious this issue is."

It's so serious, he said, that &lt;a href="http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=919ae159-35e1-4106-804f-c0a4d486a3c8" rel="nofollow"&gt;unless we reach a point where we stop emitting greenhouse gases entirely, 80 per cent of the world's species will become extinct, and human civilization as we know it will be destroyed, by the end of this century&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But this has always been one of Weaver&#8217;s strengths. Without ever dumbing the issue down, he keeps it as simple and understandable as he can.</p>
<p>He agrees the crux of his book comes down to a single alarming sentence on page 28: &#8220;People have simply no idea how serious this issue is.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s so serious, he said, that <a href="http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=919ae159-35e1-4106-804f-c0a4d486a3c8" rel="nofollow">unless we reach a point where we stop emitting greenhouse gases entirely, 80 per cent of the world&#8217;s species will become extinct, and human civilization as we know it will be destroyed, by the end of this century</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: .</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-48225</link>
		<dc:creator>.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-48225</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/1-Premises.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;Premises of Endgame&lt;/a&gt;

Premise One: Civilization is not and can never be sustainable. This is especially true for industrial civilization.

Premise Two: Traditional communities do not often voluntarily give up or sell the resources on which their communities are based until their communities have been destroyed. They also do not willingly allow their landbases to be damaged so that other resources—gold, oil, and so on—can be extracted. It follows that those who want the resources will do what they can to destroy traditional communities.

Premise Three: Our way of living—industrial civilization—is based on, requires, and would collapse very quickly without persistent and widespread violence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/1-Premises.htm" rel="nofollow">Premises of Endgame</a></p>
<p>Premise One: Civilization is not and can never be sustainable. This is especially true for industrial civilization.</p>
<p>Premise Two: Traditional communities do not often voluntarily give up or sell the resources on which their communities are based until their communities have been destroyed. They also do not willingly allow their landbases to be damaged so that other resources—gold, oil, and so on—can be extracted. It follows that those who want the resources will do what they can to destroy traditional communities.</p>
<p>Premise Three: Our way of living—industrial civilization—is based on, requires, and would collapse very quickly without persistent and widespread violence.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-36815</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-36815</guid>
		<description>We hardly need to be reminded that we are living in an age of confusion—a lot of us have traded in our beliefs for bitterness and cynicism or for a heavy package of despair, or even a quivering portion of hysteria. Opinions can be picked up cheap in the market place while such commodities as courage and fortitude and faith are in alarmingly short supply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We hardly need to be reminded that we are living in an age of confusion—a lot of us have traded in our beliefs for bitterness and cynicism or for a heavy package of despair, or even a quivering portion of hysteria. Opinions can be picked up cheap in the market place while such commodities as courage and fortitude and faith are in alarmingly short supply.</p>
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		<title>By: tristan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34992</link>
		<dc:creator>tristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 12:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34992</guid>
		<description>"I am certainly not a Kantian. "

That is most certainly correct!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am certainly not a Kantian. &#8221;</p>
<p>That is most certainly correct!</p>
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		<title>By: Milan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34948</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:53:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34948</guid>
		<description>Though, to clarify, I am certainly not a Kantian. Ethical principles are vital insofar as they guide us towards good outcomes. They have no fundamental moral importance or validity of their own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though, to clarify, I am certainly not a Kantian. Ethical principles are vital insofar as they guide us towards good outcomes. They have no fundamental moral importance or validity of their own.</p>
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		<title>By: Milan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34946</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34946</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The law is act such that the maxims of your actions could be universal rules of legislation. In other words, they could be the empirical laws that determined everyone’s action. This produces serious problems in climate change ethics&lt;/em&gt;

For the Nth time, I think this is a minor practical problem with little ethical importance. Ultimately, the moral law of sustainable emissions must be obeyed. The precise practicalities of how that is achieved are subject to a bracketed sort of morality for incomplete actions.

If six surgeons are in an operating theatre with a patient who desperately needs a procedure, it would probably be madness for all six to dive right in and start doing it simultaneously. Sometimes ethics requires a basic acknowledgment that complicated things need to be done in a sensible sequence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The law is act such that the maxims of your actions could be universal rules of legislation. In other words, they could be the empirical laws that determined everyone’s action. This produces serious problems in climate change ethics</em></p>
<p>For the Nth time, I think this is a minor practical problem with little ethical importance. Ultimately, the moral law of sustainable emissions must be obeyed. The precise practicalities of how that is achieved are subject to a bracketed sort of morality for incomplete actions.</p>
<p>If six surgeons are in an operating theatre with a patient who desperately needs a procedure, it would probably be madness for all six to dive right in and start doing it simultaneously. Sometimes ethics requires a basic acknowledgment that complicated things need to be done in a sensible sequence.</p>
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		<title>By: Tristan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34943</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34943</guid>
		<description>Sarah,

I'm worried that you're account of Kant's catagorical imperative might have come from a leaflet. If we take Kantian morality seriously - it is very difficult to see what the maxim is that we could obey without producing a contradiction. The moral law is just that - a law, if you want to be free you obey the law. The law is act such that the maxims of your actions could be universal rules of legislation. In other words, they could be the empirical laws that determined everyone's action. This produces serious problems in climate change ethics: 

For example, you could try to reduce your emissions according to some criterion, but if everyone did that the economy would collapse and you wouldn't be able to afford to reduce your emissions any longer. Of course, a collapsed economy might help mitigate climate change, but it certainly wouldn't bode well for any story about the future anyone actually wants to tell.

Strictly, this isn't a contradiction (it isn't a rational contradiction that the economy collapses). However, since it negates the position from which I make my educated decision, it is just as contradictory as "Don't kill - because if everyone killed there wouldn't be a you", or "Don't steal from banks - because if everyone did there wouldn't be banks".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m worried that you&#8217;re account of Kant&#8217;s catagorical imperative might have come from a leaflet. If we take Kantian morality seriously - it is very difficult to see what the maxim is that we could obey without producing a contradiction. The moral law is just that - a law, if you want to be free you obey the law. The law is act such that the maxims of your actions could be universal rules of legislation. In other words, they could be the empirical laws that determined everyone&#8217;s action. This produces serious problems in climate change ethics: </p>
<p>For example, you could try to reduce your emissions according to some criterion, but if everyone did that the economy would collapse and you wouldn&#8217;t be able to afford to reduce your emissions any longer. Of course, a collapsed economy might help mitigate climate change, but it certainly wouldn&#8217;t bode well for any story about the future anyone actually wants to tell.</p>
<p>Strictly, this isn&#8217;t a contradiction (it isn&#8217;t a rational contradiction that the economy collapses). However, since it negates the position from which I make my educated decision, it is just as contradictory as &#8220;Don&#8217;t kill - because if everyone killed there wouldn&#8217;t be a you&#8221;, or &#8220;Don&#8217;t steal from banks - because if everyone did there wouldn&#8217;t be banks&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: R.K.</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34888</link>
		<dc:creator>R.K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34888</guid>
		<description>If we could ever actually know for sure that we are doomed, any duty to mitigate or adapt would be voided. Of course, it is basically impossible to know that with certainty, especially given technological change.

Our best estimate of our probability of doom might be a good day to decide where we concentrate our efforts: trying to adapt, trying to mitigate, or learning to geo-engineer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we could ever actually know for sure that we are doomed, any duty to mitigate or adapt would be voided. Of course, it is basically impossible to know that with certainty, especially given technological change.</p>
<p>Our best estimate of our probability of doom might be a good day to decide where we concentrate our efforts: trying to adapt, trying to mitigate, or learning to geo-engineer.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34881</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34881</guid>
		<description>I think the key point is that there is a moral element, rather than an evaluation of rational courses of action. If we approach it from the point of view of consequentialist rationality then there is a huge collective actor problem even presuming that there is a chance we might be saved; on the other hand, a commitment to performing what one considers to be the right action regardless of consequence (think categorical imperative, perhaps) avoids the collective actor problem and means that one keeps trying even if probably doomed. Perhaps one could publish a leaflet explaining a Kantian approach to Climate Change?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the key point is that there is a moral element, rather than an evaluation of rational courses of action. If we approach it from the point of view of consequentialist rationality then there is a huge collective actor problem even presuming that there is a chance we might be saved; on the other hand, a commitment to performing what one considers to be the right action regardless of consequence (think categorical imperative, perhaps) avoids the collective actor problem and means that one keeps trying even if probably doomed. Perhaps one could publish a leaflet explaining a Kantian approach to Climate Change?</p>
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		<title>By: Tristan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34871</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 02:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34871</guid>
		<description>Oh my god - &lt;a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v502/sindark/Arizona%20Road%20Trip/?action=view&#38;current=61130014.jpg" rel="nofollow"&gt;a picture of the hot mormon&lt;/a&gt;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh my god - <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v502/sindark/Arizona%20Road%20Trip/?action=view&amp;current=61130014.jpg" rel="nofollow">a picture of the hot mormon</a>!</p>
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		<title>By: Tristan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34869</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 02:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34869</guid>
		<description>I have never stated that there can't be any moral issues around climate change, I merely have pointed out that the common way of phrasing the moral claims are faulty. There might be some other way of making moral claims, but the standard "It is immoral to drive a Hummer" just doesn't pan out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never stated that there can&#8217;t be any moral issues around climate change, I merely have pointed out that the common way of phrasing the moral claims are faulty. There might be some other way of making moral claims, but the standard &#8220;It is immoral to drive a Hummer&#8221; just doesn&#8217;t pan out.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily Horn</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34856</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily Horn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/2008/02/27/ethics-among-the-doomed/#comment-34856</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If we have crossed that threshold of inevitability, we are released of our obligations to prevent the sinking of the ship.&lt;/i&gt;

This sort of all or nothing approach to life can only foster despair. It seems that the best of humanity has died in heroic effort, not standing laureated on a pedestal. 

In fact, I think there is nothing that is more noble in the human animal than our continual determination in the face of absolute destruction. 

Just ask grand-pappy Pikaia gracilens.

Whether we're on the course to certain doom now, or whether we make it until the sun dies, or until the next natural ice age, the best thing we can do is attempt to make life as good and as peaceful as possible within our means now, and for the young'ns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If we have crossed that threshold of inevitability, we are released of our obligations to prevent the sinking of the ship.</i></p>
<p>This sort of all or nothing approach to life can only foster despair. It seems that the best of humanity has died in heroic effort, not standing laureated on a pedestal. </p>
<p>In fact, I think there is nothing that is more noble in the human animal than our continual determination in the face of absolute destruction. </p>
<p>Just ask grand-pappy Pikaia gracilens.</p>
<p>Whether we&#8217;re on the course to certain doom now, or whether we make it until the sun dies, or until the next natural ice age, the best thing we can do is attempt to make life as good and as peaceful as possible within our means now, and for the young&#8217;ns.</p>
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