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	<title>Comments on: Driving&#8217;s declining appeal</title>
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	<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/</link>
	<description>Temporarily Torontonian</description>
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		<title>By: Being a non-driver</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-99858</link>
		<dc:creator>Being a non-driver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-99858</guid>
		<description>[...] I have written before about driving&#8217;s declining appeal. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have written before about driving&#8217;s declining appeal. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: .</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-40646</link>
		<dc:creator>.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 20:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-40646</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://daily.sightline.org/daily_score/archive/2008/05/09/suv-rollover&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;SUV Rollover&lt;/a&gt;

[W]holesale prices on big SUVs such as Chevrolet Tahoes, Ford Expeditions and Toyota Sequoias are down 17% from a year ago. Full-size pickups have fallen as much as 15%...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://daily.sightline.org/daily_score/archive/2008/05/09/suv-rollover" rel="nofollow">SUV Rollover</a></p>
<p>[W]holesale prices on big SUVs such as Chevrolet Tahoes, Ford Expeditions and Toyota Sequoias are down 17% from a year ago. Full-size pickups have fallen as much as 15%&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: .</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-39605</link>
		<dc:creator>.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 14:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-39605</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=492332&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;There is a mounting body of evidence suggesting that global demand for oil is fast outstripping supply&lt;/a&gt;. For starters, global oil production has stagnated in recent years at approximately 87 million barrels per day. This is as much the result of the declining output by some of the world&#039;s largest oil fields (e.g., onetime oil exporters such as Mexico are now importing gas) as it is a reflection of the difficulty of finding new oil reserves: In the last 15 years, despite oil companies spending billions on exploration, only one new oil field with the potential to produce half a million barrels a day has been found.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=492332" rel="nofollow">There is a mounting body of evidence suggesting that global demand for oil is fast outstripping supply</a>. For starters, global oil production has stagnated in recent years at approximately 87 million barrels per day. This is as much the result of the declining output by some of the world&#8217;s largest oil fields (e.g., onetime oil exporters such as Mexico are now importing gas) as it is a reflection of the difficulty of finding new oil reserves: In the last 15 years, despite oil companies spending billions on exploration, only one new oil field with the potential to produce half a million barrels a day has been found.</p>
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		<title>By: Tristan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-39514</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 09:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-39514</guid>
		<description>It goes without saying that while driving there is a duty to approach the situation with constant vigilance. The fact that people in north american socities do not in general &quot;take driving seriously&quot; is unfortunate, but doesn&#039;t change things when it comes to what one should do.

In moral deliberation, &quot;what everyone does&quot; is irrelevant except insofar as it changes what one ought to do or can do. It is of absolutely no use whatsoever to try to think of the principle which if everyone followed, we would be better off, because we don&#039;t make laws for others. The point of moral deliberation is to find what&#039;s right for one to do, and simply because one is a moral universalist and believes that anyone in that situation would have the same duties does not mean the point of investigating duties is to find out &quot;what everyone should do&quot;. &quot;What everyone should do&quot; is of no moral significance whatsoever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It goes without saying that while driving there is a duty to approach the situation with constant vigilance. The fact that people in north american socities do not in general &#8220;take driving seriously&#8221; is unfortunate, but doesn&#8217;t change things when it comes to what one should do.</p>
<p>In moral deliberation, &#8220;what everyone does&#8221; is irrelevant except insofar as it changes what one ought to do or can do. It is of absolutely no use whatsoever to try to think of the principle which if everyone followed, we would be better off, because we don&#8217;t make laws for others. The point of moral deliberation is to find what&#8217;s right for one to do, and simply because one is a moral universalist and believes that anyone in that situation would have the same duties does not mean the point of investigating duties is to find out &#8220;what everyone should do&#8221;. &#8220;What everyone should do&#8221; is of no moral significance whatsoever.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-39494</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 08:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-39494</guid>
		<description>Neal makes some very good points, which as a frequent driver I am inclined to agree with.   It&#039;s one thing to be licensed to drive, and another thing to be an adept driver.   Our licensing requirements are finally moving in the right direction (and as a result, licensing less people), but it&#039;s still not really enough, and it&#039;s up to the individual to refrain from driving when they just plain suck at it.   People have this terrifying ability to push the inherent dangers involved in driving out of their minds, when they should approach driving with constant vigilance.   It is one of the most dangerous habits of our lives, and should be treated as such.  Minimizing driving is minimizing death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neal makes some very good points, which as a frequent driver I am inclined to agree with.   It&#8217;s one thing to be licensed to drive, and another thing to be an adept driver.   Our licensing requirements are finally moving in the right direction (and as a result, licensing less people), but it&#8217;s still not really enough, and it&#8217;s up to the individual to refrain from driving when they just plain suck at it.   People have this terrifying ability to push the inherent dangers involved in driving out of their minds, when they should approach driving with constant vigilance.   It is one of the most dangerous habits of our lives, and should be treated as such.  Minimizing driving is minimizing death.</p>
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		<title>By: Tristan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-39299</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 14:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-39299</guid>
		<description>&quot; Part of the problem with your argument is that it only applies to the transportation infrastructure we have today. I strongly suspect that the dominance of private automobiles, especially in urban areas, is coming to an end&quot;

Since I don&#039;t believe in God or morality which is imposed on us in abstraction from our involvements, I think all moral duties derive from the situations we find ourselves in, or can expect to find ourselves in. So, I entirely agree that as the &quot;age of driving&quot; comes to an end, the duty to have the ability to drive will fade. I do not think any duties are absolute outside particular situations, because I just don&#039;t think its possible to know in advance what moral demands will be made on us, although we can make good guesses. 

To clarify, I never argued that there was a duty to get a license, merely to have the ability to drive (this would probably include the ability to drive different kinds of vehicles, i.e. manual, gas and diesel, trucks and cars etc...). I would agree first aid training falls into the same category of duties. There is something like a duty to know basic first aid training because you can expect the possibility in which said training would appear as a necessity in some situation is not obscure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Part of the problem with your argument is that it only applies to the transportation infrastructure we have today. I strongly suspect that the dominance of private automobiles, especially in urban areas, is coming to an end&#8221;</p>
<p>Since I don&#8217;t believe in God or morality which is imposed on us in abstraction from our involvements, I think all moral duties derive from the situations we find ourselves in, or can expect to find ourselves in. So, I entirely agree that as the &#8220;age of driving&#8221; comes to an end, the duty to have the ability to drive will fade. I do not think any duties are absolute outside particular situations, because I just don&#8217;t think its possible to know in advance what moral demands will be made on us, although we can make good guesses. </p>
<p>To clarify, I never argued that there was a duty to get a license, merely to have the ability to drive (this would probably include the ability to drive different kinds of vehicles, i.e. manual, gas and diesel, trucks and cars etc&#8230;). I would agree first aid training falls into the same category of duties. There is something like a duty to know basic first aid training because you can expect the possibility in which said training would appear as a necessity in some situation is not obscure.</p>
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		<title>By: Neal</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-39181</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 04:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-39181</guid>
		<description>Part of the problem with your argument, Tristan, is that it only applies to the transportation infrastructure we have today. I strongly suspect that the dominance of private automobiles, especially in urban areas, is coming to an end. Besides, having a license and no car would just replace being dependent on rides from friends to being dependent on friends who&#039;s vehicle you can borrow. That said, this is just ancillary to your argument that prudence requires the ability to drive. I do wonder, though, if your argument is better applied to, say, first aid training than driving; certainly, driving seems to be a skill many more people acquire.

Another point to consider is if the advantages of everyone being able or licensed to drive are outweighed by the cost in lives on the road of private automobiles being the dominant form of transportation.

Part of the reason I resist the pressure on me to get a license is that if I had one and no car, I would drive rarely, which would make me a decidedly less safe driver than someone who is on the road every day. I also wonder if the incentive to get behind the wheel out of convenience would prove too compelling, especially considering how much more convenient driving makes backcountry skiing.

Certainly, in areas where driving is an absolute necessity, there would be a strong argument for a moral duty to acquire driving skills, but everyone learns to drive in these places anyways. It&#039;s in the city, where such a circumstance would be much rarer, where you would find the most people who can&#039;t drive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of the problem with your argument, Tristan, is that it only applies to the transportation infrastructure we have today. I strongly suspect that the dominance of private automobiles, especially in urban areas, is coming to an end. Besides, having a license and no car would just replace being dependent on rides from friends to being dependent on friends who&#8217;s vehicle you can borrow. That said, this is just ancillary to your argument that prudence requires the ability to drive. I do wonder, though, if your argument is better applied to, say, first aid training than driving; certainly, driving seems to be a skill many more people acquire.</p>
<p>Another point to consider is if the advantages of everyone being able or licensed to drive are outweighed by the cost in lives on the road of private automobiles being the dominant form of transportation.</p>
<p>Part of the reason I resist the pressure on me to get a license is that if I had one and no car, I would drive rarely, which would make me a decidedly less safe driver than someone who is on the road every day. I also wonder if the incentive to get behind the wheel out of convenience would prove too compelling, especially considering how much more convenient driving makes backcountry skiing.</p>
<p>Certainly, in areas where driving is an absolute necessity, there would be a strong argument for a moral duty to acquire driving skills, but everyone learns to drive in these places anyways. It&#8217;s in the city, where such a circumstance would be much rarer, where you would find the most people who can&#8217;t drive.</p>
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		<title>By: Tristan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-39112</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 21:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-39112</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’m not convinced by Tristan’s claim that one is dependant on friends &amp; family with licences. &quot;

I do not mean that everyone is so dependent, but from my observation of Milan&#039;s friends, their normal patterns of behavior often require someone to act as a driver. What sort of skills one depends on is contingent on the actions one engages in. 

However, this is not so important for my argument. What I really wanted to point towards was the existence of certain contexts where the ability, but not license, to drive a car appears as an absolute necessity. Such as, if someone needs to get to the hospital and there is no ambulance service - or even if there is, in rural areas ambulances take twice as long as a car because they have to travel in both directions. (Of course they can drive faster which someone mitigates this, and perhaps they are safer than speeding). 

I think the strong requirement to learn to drive is derived from the reasonable possibility that one might one day find oneself in a situation where this skill is indispensable. Saying that there will likely be someone else there to has the skill doesn&#039;t feel like a way to shrug off the moral requirement, because if everyone made that argument, then it would become false.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’m not convinced by Tristan’s claim that one is dependant on friends &amp; family with licences. &#8221;</p>
<p>I do not mean that everyone is so dependent, but from my observation of Milan&#8217;s friends, their normal patterns of behavior often require someone to act as a driver. What sort of skills one depends on is contingent on the actions one engages in. </p>
<p>However, this is not so important for my argument. What I really wanted to point towards was the existence of certain contexts where the ability, but not license, to drive a car appears as an absolute necessity. Such as, if someone needs to get to the hospital and there is no ambulance service &#8211; or even if there is, in rural areas ambulances take twice as long as a car because they have to travel in both directions. (Of course they can drive faster which someone mitigates this, and perhaps they are safer than speeding). </p>
<p>I think the strong requirement to learn to drive is derived from the reasonable possibility that one might one day find oneself in a situation where this skill is indispensable. Saying that there will likely be someone else there to has the skill doesn&#8217;t feel like a way to shrug off the moral requirement, because if everyone made that argument, then it would become false.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-39100</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 20:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-39100</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not convinced by Tristan&#039;s claim that one is dependant on friends &amp; family with licences. There are some locations that do require a car to access (presuming one wants to avoid a very long walk or cycle eg. on logging roads) but these tend to be optional and the vast majority of places can be reached by public transit or commercial buses, even outside the city. 

In the UK I use public transit to get virtually everywhere, including airports, my parents house, friends houses, and entertainment such as Wimbledon or Brighton Pier. In Vancouver I get around by cycling &amp; public transit, except for the times I purchase things like large furniture or large plants (though often the retailers will deliver). When I travelled to Yosemite from Vancouver, Greyhound buses took me the entire way. Even at the extreme of having a stress fracture in my leg, I got around using public transit &amp; occasional taxis.

As such, I see no problem with urban societies in which the only drivers are professional drivers - people in buses, taxis, fortlifts etc. HOWEVER, such societies would require a better developed etiquette for using public transit, eg. not smoking at bus stops; not having loud, protracted personal calls on crowded buses; and using a hankerchief when you sneeze.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not convinced by Tristan&#8217;s claim that one is dependant on friends &amp; family with licences. There are some locations that do require a car to access (presuming one wants to avoid a very long walk or cycle eg. on logging roads) but these tend to be optional and the vast majority of places can be reached by public transit or commercial buses, even outside the city. </p>
<p>In the UK I use public transit to get virtually everywhere, including airports, my parents house, friends houses, and entertainment such as Wimbledon or Brighton Pier. In Vancouver I get around by cycling &amp; public transit, except for the times I purchase things like large furniture or large plants (though often the retailers will deliver). When I travelled to Yosemite from Vancouver, Greyhound buses took me the entire way. Even at the extreme of having a stress fracture in my leg, I got around using public transit &amp; occasional taxis.</p>
<p>As such, I see no problem with urban societies in which the only drivers are professional drivers &#8211; people in buses, taxis, fortlifts etc. HOWEVER, such societies would require a better developed etiquette for using public transit, eg. not smoking at bus stops; not having loud, protracted personal calls on crowded buses; and using a hankerchief when you sneeze.</p>
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		<title>By: Milan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-39076</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 19:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-39076</guid>
		<description>Sasha,

That is one of the ways in which it is like smoking. At one point, diners in restaurants and office workers would have assumed the right to smoke wherever they were.

Now, people are legally obligated to take the health and comfort of others into account - at least when it comes to the absolutely vile habit of smoking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sasha,</p>
<p>That is one of the ways in which it is like smoking. At one point, diners in restaurants and office workers would have assumed the right to smoke wherever they were.</p>
<p>Now, people are legally obligated to take the health and comfort of others into account &#8211; at least when it comes to the absolutely vile habit of smoking.</p>
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		<title>By: Sasha</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-39075</link>
		<dc:creator>Sasha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 19:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-39075</guid>
		<description>and that wants to be *hit rather than *hot, of course...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and that wants to be *hit rather than *hot, of course&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sasha</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/05/03/drivings-declining-appeal/#comment-39074</link>
		<dc:creator>Sasha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 19:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2722#comment-39074</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ve hot on a topic I&#039;ve actually been discussing quite a bit lately. I attribute this shift at least in part to a change in mentality. The impression that I get from members of previous generations - my parents&#039; and grandparents&#039; for instance - is that driving/automobile ownership was viewed as a right, something each individual is entitled to. Few among my friends of my own generation have this attitude. Instead, they view driving as a privilege. What&#039;s more, they tend to view every day use of automobiles for individual commuter transportation as an abuse of this privilege. I agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve hot on a topic I&#8217;ve actually been discussing quite a bit lately. I attribute this shift at least in part to a change in mentality. The impression that I get from members of previous generations &#8211; my parents&#8217; and grandparents&#8217; for instance &#8211; is that driving/automobile ownership was viewed as a right, something each individual is entitled to. Few among my friends of my own generation have this attitude. Instead, they view driving as a privilege. What&#8217;s more, they tend to view every day use of automobiles for individual commuter transportation as an abuse of this privilege. I agree.</p>
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