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	<title>Comments on: How politicians think</title>
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	<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/07/12/how-politicians-think/</link>
	<description>dispatches from Canada's capital</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 17:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/07/12/how-politicians-think/#comment-46482</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2937#comment-46482</guid>
		<description>'Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who pre-judge the nature and importance of the facts so as to support their pre-existing ideology or interests'.

Seeing that as not being part of the proper role of politics is exactly what I am complaining about. Amazingly, people bring pre-existing convictions and self-understandings to their attempts, even their good-willed attempts, to decide what to do about climate change. Not everyone agrees about that, so you're going to get disagreement. That disagreement has to be negotiated. And as for the invocation of dispassion, a) thinking that a technocratic, dispassionate perspective in the right one to assess these things from is a pre-existing doctrine like any other and b) it is a pre-existing doctrine whose content is up for grabs, just like any other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who pre-judge the nature and importance of the facts so as to support their pre-existing ideology or interests&#8217;.</p>
<p>Seeing that as not being part of the proper role of politics is exactly what I am complaining about. Amazingly, people bring pre-existing convictions and self-understandings to their attempts, even their good-willed attempts, to decide what to do about climate change. Not everyone agrees about that, so you&#8217;re going to get disagreement. That disagreement has to be negotiated. And as for the invocation of dispassion, a) thinking that a technocratic, dispassionate perspective in the right one to assess these things from is a pre-existing doctrine like any other and b) it is a pre-existing doctrine whose content is up for grabs, just like any other.</p>
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		<title>By: Milan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/07/12/how-politicians-think/#comment-46376</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2937#comment-46376</guid>
		<description>I very much agree. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who pre-judge the nature and importance of the facts so as to support their pre-existing ideology or interests.

While it might be technically possible to create a dispassionate assessment of things like the costs of mitigation and adaptation, it is hard to do so within a political realm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I very much agree. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who pre-judge the nature and importance of the facts so as to support their pre-existing ideology or interests.</p>
<p>While it might be technically possible to create a dispassionate assessment of things like the costs of mitigation and adaptation, it is hard to do so within a political realm.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/07/12/how-politicians-think/#comment-46320</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2937#comment-46320</guid>
		<description>That quite specific policy question seems to me to locate the disagreement at far too concrete a level. Disagreements seem to be at a much more general level, like, what do we owe members of other states; what do we owe future generations, including our future selves; is economic cost the right kind of way to assess the harms of climate change. This, however, may be partly being more philosophically inclined. And I certainly didn't mean to imply that disagreement about the facts was legitimate: what's legitimate, and requires negotiation, is the relevance of the facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That quite specific policy question seems to me to locate the disagreement at far too concrete a level. Disagreements seem to be at a much more general level, like, what do we owe members of other states; what do we owe future generations, including our future selves; is economic cost the right kind of way to assess the harms of climate change. This, however, may be partly being more philosophically inclined. And I certainly didn&#8217;t mean to imply that disagreement about the facts was legitimate: what&#8217;s legitimate, and requires negotiation, is the relevance of the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Milan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/07/12/how-politicians-think/#comment-46175</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2937#comment-46175</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Demands to just agree with some set of non-political facts are a demand for the erasure of the political.&lt;/em&gt;

Agreeing with (a) non-political facts and (b) non-political hypotheses about the physical world bolstered by one or another degree of evidence is vital for beginning the political conversation about climate change. Otherwise, we have no way to arbitrate between the uninformed minority who assert that it is likely to be beneficial overall and the majority who think that extremely improbable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Demands to just agree with some set of non-political facts are a demand for the erasure of the political.</em></p>
<p>Agreeing with (a) non-political facts and (b) non-political hypotheses about the physical world bolstered by one or another degree of evidence is vital for beginning the political conversation about climate change. Otherwise, we have no way to arbitrate between the uninformed minority who assert that it is likely to be beneficial overall and the majority who think that extremely improbable.</p>
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		<title>By: Milan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/07/12/how-politicians-think/#comment-46173</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2937#comment-46173</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Scientists and policy wonks may not like the fact of disagreement, and not just being able to implement the technocratic solution they favour, but it is a fact, and politics has to happen.&lt;/em&gt;

There is inevitably lots of disagreement in something like climate policy. Should an especially dirty industry have to face very heavy carbon prices, in keeping with the polluter pays principle, or do they deserve more lenient treatment because their business model is most threatened by carbon pricing?

That being said, I do think people are too willing to intepret the physical realities of climate chage on the basis of ongoing disagreements between 'experts' of various calibers. Even in areas where there is absolutely no scientific disagreement (say, the fact that greenhouse gasses absorb outgoing infrared and heat the planet), too many politicians think the science is 'unsettled.'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Scientists and policy wonks may not like the fact of disagreement, and not just being able to implement the technocratic solution they favour, but it is a fact, and politics has to happen.</em></p>
<p>There is inevitably lots of disagreement in something like climate policy. Should an especially dirty industry have to face very heavy carbon prices, in keeping with the polluter pays principle, or do they deserve more lenient treatment because their business model is most threatened by carbon pricing?</p>
<p>That being said, I do think people are too willing to intepret the physical realities of climate chage on the basis of ongoing disagreements between &#8216;experts&#8217; of various calibers. Even in areas where there is absolutely no scientific disagreement (say, the fact that greenhouse gasses absorb outgoing infrared and heat the planet), too many politicians think the science is &#8216;unsettled.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/07/12/how-politicians-think/#comment-46167</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2937#comment-46167</guid>
		<description>That it is like Plato is almost exactly what is wrong with it. Politics exists because of difference; obviously part of politics is then going to be negotiating that difference; demands to just agree with some set of non-political facts are a demand for the erasure of the political. I expect complaints about the way all literature is just lying any minute.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That it is like Plato is almost exactly what is wrong with it. Politics exists because of difference; obviously part of politics is then going to be negotiating that difference; demands to just agree with some set of non-political facts are a demand for the erasure of the political. I expect complaints about the way all literature is just lying any minute.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/07/12/how-politicians-think/#comment-46127</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2937#comment-46127</guid>
		<description>I think this nicely captures Plato's cave. Prizes are awarded to those who can best predict the actions of the shadows, but it's all unreal and the prisoners are unaware of the Forms and true art of navigation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this nicely captures Plato&#8217;s cave. Prizes are awarded to those who can best predict the actions of the shadows, but it&#8217;s all unreal and the prisoners are unaware of the Forms and true art of navigation.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2008/07/12/how-politicians-think/#comment-46074</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=2937#comment-46074</guid>
		<description>"The outcome of a trial is not based on the facts; it is based on what [lawyers] can convince the jury the facts might be. Likewise the outcome of an election is not based on facts; it is based on what [politicians] can convince the electorate the relevant facts, issues and threats might be."

The second sentence is not talking about the same phenomenon as the first, and the first is false anyway. The first sentence talks about getting people to agree on what the facts are; the second talks about getting them to agree on what the relevant facts are. We can agree that being waterboarded, for example, is an unpleasant experience, but disagree about whether that is relevant for whether or not it's torture. And that's what lawyers try and do usually anyway: they argue about relevance against a pretty fixed background of facts. Scientists and policy wonks may not like the fact of disagreement, and not just being able to implement the technocratic solution they favour, but it is a fact, and politics has to happen. Being snide about it doesn't help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The outcome of a trial is not based on the facts; it is based on what [lawyers] can convince the jury the facts might be. Likewise the outcome of an election is not based on facts; it is based on what [politicians] can convince the electorate the relevant facts, issues and threats might be.&#8221;</p>
<p>The second sentence is not talking about the same phenomenon as the first, and the first is false anyway. The first sentence talks about getting people to agree on what the facts are; the second talks about getting them to agree on what the relevant facts are. We can agree that being waterboarded, for example, is an unpleasant experience, but disagree about whether that is relevant for whether or not it&#8217;s torture. And that&#8217;s what lawyers try and do usually anyway: they argue about relevance against a pretty fixed background of facts. Scientists and policy wonks may not like the fact of disagreement, and not just being able to implement the technocratic solution they favour, but it is a fact, and politics has to happen. Being snide about it doesn&#8217;t help.</p>
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