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	<title>Comments on: HFCs and climate change</title>
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	<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/</link>
	<description>Temporarily Torontonian</description>
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		<title>By: The Lindzen Fallacy</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-87283</link>
		<dc:creator>The Lindzen Fallacy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-87283</guid>
		<description>[...] is not enough to prove that climate change is dangerous, or that we should do nothing about it. As I argued in a discussion with a different climate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is not enough to prove that climate change is dangerous, or that we should do nothing about it. As I argued in a discussion with a different climate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Milan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-86251</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-86251</guid>
		<description>This post is relevant here: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sindark.com/2010/02/03/climate-change-the-solar-hypothesis/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Climate change: the solar hypothesis&lt;/a&gt;

It describes paleoclimatic evidence that shows why the sun hasn&#039;t been the dominant climate forcing in the recent past, or across the last 65 million years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post is relevant here: <a href="http://www.sindark.com/2010/02/03/climate-change-the-solar-hypothesis/" rel="nofollow">Climate change: the solar hypothesis</a></p>
<p>It describes paleoclimatic evidence that shows why the sun hasn&#8217;t been the dominant climate forcing in the recent past, or across the last 65 million years.</p>
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		<title>By: Milan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-84700</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-84700</guid>
		<description>As for Viscount Christopher Monckton, who is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-80297&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;mentioned above&lt;/a&gt;, George Monbiot has &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2009/12/10/ukips-latest-acquisition/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;an interesting piece revealing that he is a complete kook&lt;/a&gt;.

He falsely claims to be a Nobel laureate (and has also falsely claimed to be a member of the UK House of Lords). He &quot;contends that he won the Falklands war for Britain by persuading the British government to use biological warfare.&quot; He also claims to be &quot;responsible for invention and development of a broad-spectrum cure for infectious diseases. Patents have now been filed. Patients have been cured of various infectious diseases, including Graves’ disease, multiple sclerosis, influenza, food poisoning, and HIV.&quot;

Monbiot has a number of other examples of why this isn&#039;t a man we should be taking seriously on any matter of importance, much less something as technical and important as climate change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for Viscount Christopher Monckton, who is <a href="http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-80297" rel="nofollow">mentioned above</a>, George Monbiot has <a href="http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2009/12/10/ukips-latest-acquisition/" rel="nofollow">an interesting piece revealing that he is a complete kook</a>.</p>
<p>He falsely claims to be a Nobel laureate (and has also falsely claimed to be a member of the UK House of Lords). He &#8220;contends that he won the Falklands war for Britain by persuading the British government to use biological warfare.&#8221; He also claims to be &#8220;responsible for invention and development of a broad-spectrum cure for infectious diseases. Patents have now been filed. Patients have been cured of various infectious diseases, including Graves’ disease, multiple sclerosis, influenza, food poisoning, and HIV.&#8221;</p>
<p>Monbiot has a number of other examples of why this isn&#8217;t a man we should be taking seriously on any matter of importance, much less something as technical and important as climate change.</p>
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		<title>By: Milan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-84675</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:26:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-84675</guid>
		<description>While it isn&#039;t really related to HFCs (the ostensible topic of this post), I am using this thread to list various rebuttals to the solar theories brought forward by some delayers and deniers, as Dan Pangburn has done above.

If someone thinks they have evidence that demonstrates how observed warming could have been induced by solar phenomena, I encourage them to submit it to an appropriate journal for peer-review.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While it isn&#8217;t really related to HFCs (the ostensible topic of this post), I am using this thread to list various rebuttals to the solar theories brought forward by some delayers and deniers, as Dan Pangburn has done above.</p>
<p>If someone thinks they have evidence that demonstrates how observed warming could have been induced by solar phenomena, I encourage them to submit it to an appropriate journal for peer-review.</p>
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		<title>By: .</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-84674</link>
		<dc:creator>.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-84674</guid>
		<description>&quot;Even if you were to exclude every line of evidence which could possibly be disputed - the proxy records, the computer models, the complex science of clouds and ocean currents - the evidence for manmade global warming would still be unequivocal. You can see it in the measured temperature record, which goes back to 1850; in the shrinkage of glaciers and the thinning of sea ice; in the responses of wild animals and plants and the rapidly changing crop zones.

No other explanation for these shifts makes sense. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2009/12/07/the-real-climate-scandal/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Solar cycles have been out of synch with the temperature record for 40 years.&lt;/a&gt; The Milankovic cycle, which describes variations in the earth’s orbit, doesn’t explain it either. But the warming trend is closely correlated with the accumulation of heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere. The impact of these gases can be demonstrated in the laboratory. To assert that they do not have the same effect in the atmosphere, a novel and radical theory would be required. No such theory exists. The science is not fixed - no science ever is - but it is as firm as science can be. The evidence for manmade global warming remains as strong as the evidence linking smoking to lung cancer or HIV to AIDS. &quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Even if you were to exclude every line of evidence which could possibly be disputed &#8211; the proxy records, the computer models, the complex science of clouds and ocean currents &#8211; the evidence for manmade global warming would still be unequivocal. You can see it in the measured temperature record, which goes back to 1850; in the shrinkage of glaciers and the thinning of sea ice; in the responses of wild animals and plants and the rapidly changing crop zones.</p>
<p>No other explanation for these shifts makes sense. <a href="http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2009/12/07/the-real-climate-scandal/" rel="nofollow">Solar cycles have been out of synch with the temperature record for 40 years.</a> The Milankovic cycle, which describes variations in the earth’s orbit, doesn’t explain it either. But the warming trend is closely correlated with the accumulation of heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere. The impact of these gases can be demonstrated in the laboratory. To assert that they do not have the same effect in the atmosphere, a novel and radical theory would be required. No such theory exists. The science is not fixed &#8211; no science ever is &#8211; but it is as firm as science can be. The evidence for manmade global warming remains as strong as the evidence linking smoking to lung cancer or HIV to AIDS. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: .</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-84631</link>
		<dc:creator>.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-84631</guid>
		<description>“And again, we&#039;re putting 90 million tons of it into the air today and we&#039;ll put a little more of that up there tomorrow. The physical relationship between CO2 molecules and the atmosphere and the trapping of heat is as well-established as gravity, for God&#039;s sakes. It&#039;s not some mystery. One hundred and fifty years ago this year, John Tyndall discovered CO2 traps heat, and that was the same year the first oil well was drilled in Pennsylvania. The oil industry has outpaced the building of a public consensus of the implications of climate science.

But the basic facts are incontrovertible. What do they think happens when we put 90 million tons up there every day? &lt;a href=&quot;//www.slate.com/id/2237789/pagenum/2”&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Is there some magic wand they can wave on it and presto!—physics is overturned and carbon dioxide doesn&#039;t trap heat anymore?&lt;/a&gt; And when we see all these things happening on the Earth itself, what in the hell do they think is causing it? The scientists have long held that the evidence in their considered word is &quot;unequivocal,&quot; which has been endorsed by every national academy of science in every major country in the entire world.

If the people that believed the moon landing was staged on a movie lot had access to unlimited money from large carbon polluters or some other special interest who wanted to confuse people into thinking that the moon landing didn&#039;t take place, I&#039;m sure we&#039;d have a robust debate about it right now.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“And again, we&#8217;re putting 90 million tons of it into the air today and we&#8217;ll put a little more of that up there tomorrow. The physical relationship between CO2 molecules and the atmosphere and the trapping of heat is as well-established as gravity, for God&#8217;s sakes. It&#8217;s not some mystery. One hundred and fifty years ago this year, John Tyndall discovered CO2 traps heat, and that was the same year the first oil well was drilled in Pennsylvania. The oil industry has outpaced the building of a public consensus of the implications of climate science.</p>
<p>But the basic facts are incontrovertible. What do they think happens when we put 90 million tons up there every day? <a href="//www.slate.com/id/2237789/pagenum/2”" rel="nofollow">Is there some magic wand they can wave on it and presto!—physics is overturned and carbon dioxide doesn&#8217;t trap heat anymore?</a> And when we see all these things happening on the Earth itself, what in the hell do they think is causing it? The scientists have long held that the evidence in their considered word is &#8220;unequivocal,&#8221; which has been endorsed by every national academy of science in every major country in the entire world.</p>
<p>If the people that believed the moon landing was staged on a movie lot had access to unlimited money from large carbon polluters or some other special interest who wanted to confuse people into thinking that the moon landing didn&#8217;t take place, I&#8217;m sure we&#8217;d have a robust debate about it right now.”</p>
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		<title>By: .</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-84600</link>
		<dc:creator>.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:43:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-84600</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/responding-to-the-skeptics/article1389545/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RECENT WARMING IS MOSTLY DUE TO AN INCREASE IN THE AMOUNT OF RADIATION COMING FROM THE SUN.&lt;/a&gt;&quot;

Rubbish.

No credible scientific data support this claim. When solar output is at its highest in the 11-year sunspot cycle, as it was about half a dozen years ago, the sun warms the planet&#039;s surface about a third of a watt per square metre more than it does when solar output is at its minimum, as it is right now. This tiny shift in the solar flux is swamped by the extra three watts per square metre produced by the greenhouse gases humans have already emitted. In fact, since the late 1970s, when direct satellite measurement of solar radiation became available, these small changes in solar output have been cooling Earth at precisely the time when global warming has been accelerating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/responding-to-the-skeptics/article1389545/" rel="nofollow">RECENT WARMING IS MOSTLY DUE TO AN INCREASE IN THE AMOUNT OF RADIATION COMING FROM THE SUN.</a>&#8221;</p>
<p>Rubbish.</p>
<p>No credible scientific data support this claim. When solar output is at its highest in the 11-year sunspot cycle, as it was about half a dozen years ago, the sun warms the planet&#8217;s surface about a third of a watt per square metre more than it does when solar output is at its minimum, as it is right now. This tiny shift in the solar flux is swamped by the extra three watts per square metre produced by the greenhouse gases humans have already emitted. In fact, since the late 1970s, when direct satellite measurement of solar radiation became available, these small changes in solar output have been cooling Earth at precisely the time when global warming has been accelerating.</p>
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		<title>By: .</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-84210</link>
		<dc:creator>.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-84210</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s therefore interesting to note that the LeMouel paper, on the one hand, demonstrates that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/a-problem-of-multiplicity/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;there essentially is no relationship between several indicators for European climate and the aa-index or the monthly sunspot number&lt;/a&gt;, and on the other, argues in the introduction and discussion that these are important for the state of our climate…&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It’s therefore interesting to note that the LeMouel paper, on the one hand, demonstrates that <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/a-problem-of-multiplicity/" rel="nofollow">there essentially is no relationship between several indicators for European climate and the aa-index or the monthly sunspot number</a>, and on the other, argues in the introduction and discussion that these are important for the state of our climate…&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Milan</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-84181</link>
		<dc:creator>Milan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-84181</guid>
		<description>Here is a clean version of the figure mentioned above:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sindark.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/SolarInfluence.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Time-series of solar irradiance alongside the net effect of greenhouse gas emissions&lt;/a&gt;

I think this discussion has now reached its point of exhaustion. Dan is unwilling to explain why he made the mathematical choices he did and unwilling to submit his work for review by scientists. Peer-reviewed and published data and analysis on climate change take into account solar factors, and does not conclude that observed temperature increases can be explained by that means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a clean version of the figure mentioned above:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/SolarInfluence.png" rel="nofollow">Time-series of solar irradiance alongside the net effect of greenhouse gas emissions</a></p>
<p>I think this discussion has now reached its point of exhaustion. Dan is unwilling to explain why he made the mathematical choices he did and unwilling to submit his work for review by scientists. Peer-reviewed and published data and analysis on climate change take into account solar factors, and does not conclude that observed temperature increases can be explained by that means.</p>
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		<title>By: .</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-84180</link>
		<dc:creator>.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-84180</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.copenhagendiagnosis.org/download/Copenhagen_Diagnosis_LOW.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Can solar activity or other natural processes explain global warming?&lt;/a&gt; (p.16)

No. The incoming solar radiation has been almost constant over the past 50 years, apart from the well-known 11-year solar cycle (Figure 5). In fact it has slightly decreased over this period. In addition, over the past three years the brightness of the sun has reached an all-time low since the beginning of satellite measurements in the 1970s (Lockwood and Fröhlich 2007, 2008). But this natural cooling effect was more than a factor of ten smaller than the effect of increasing greenhouse gases, so it has not noticeably slowed down global warming. Also, winters are warming more rapidly than summers, and overnight minimum temperatures have warmed more rapidly than the daytime maxima – exactly the opposite of what would be the case if the sun were causing the warming. Other natural factors, like volcanic eruptions or El Niño events, have only caused short-term temperature variations over time spans of a few years, but cannot explain any longer-term climatic trends (e.g., Lean and Rind 2008).

Figure 5. (below) Time-series of solar irradiance alongside the net effect of greenhouse gas emissions (the latter relative to the year 1880; using Meehl et al. 2004) calculated in terms of total estimated impact on global air temperatures; observed from 1970-2008; and projected from 2009-2030 (adapted from Lean and Rind 2009).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.copenhagendiagnosis.org/download/Copenhagen_Diagnosis_LOW.pdf" rel="nofollow">Can solar activity or other natural processes explain global warming?</a> (p.16)</p>
<p>No. The incoming solar radiation has been almost constant over the past 50 years, apart from the well-known 11-year solar cycle (Figure 5). In fact it has slightly decreased over this period. In addition, over the past three years the brightness of the sun has reached an all-time low since the beginning of satellite measurements in the 1970s (Lockwood and Fröhlich 2007, 2008). But this natural cooling effect was more than a factor of ten smaller than the effect of increasing greenhouse gases, so it has not noticeably slowed down global warming. Also, winters are warming more rapidly than summers, and overnight minimum temperatures have warmed more rapidly than the daytime maxima – exactly the opposite of what would be the case if the sun were causing the warming. Other natural factors, like volcanic eruptions or El Niño events, have only caused short-term temperature variations over time spans of a few years, but cannot explain any longer-term climatic trends (e.g., Lean and Rind 2008).</p>
<p>Figure 5. (below) Time-series of solar irradiance alongside the net effect of greenhouse gas emissions (the latter relative to the year 1880; using Meehl et al. 2004) calculated in terms of total estimated impact on global air temperatures; observed from 1970-2008; and projected from 2009-2030 (adapted from Lean and Rind 2009).</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-83984</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-83984</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...The energy difference is divided by a constant, 4000, to get a value close to the temperature anomalies and an offset, 0.4, is subtracted to move the plot to overlay the measured anomalies...&lt;/i&gt;

Are you just scaling and shifting functions arbitrarily so that random data fits some sort of average temperature graph?

If so, how have you come to the conclusion that this is mathematically appropriate? What are the units of your coefficients (and what do they imply)?

What has the first law of thermodynamics got to do with anything? It&#039;s not as though the Earth and its atmosphere are closed systems from an energy standpoint (which would nullify your argument that we should consider the first law of thermodynamics [essentially the conservation of energy]). 

Finally, you keep mentioning a time-integral of sunspots. What specifically are you integrating with respect to time? Number of sunspots? What are the final units? Why would we expect sunspots to have a cumulative effect on the Earth&#039;s atmosphere? (The effect would have to cumulative if you&#039;re integrating over time).

&lt;i&gt;This&lt;/i&gt; engineer thinks you don&#039;t know what you&#039;re on about.

&lt;i&gt;Tens of billions of dollars have been spent in futile efforts to prove that added CO2 caused Global Warming while an unpaid &lt;/i&gt;[crackpot]&lt;i&gt; engineer has discovered what really caused the temperature run-up in the 20th century.&lt;/i&gt;

This right here sums it up. Organizations with infinitely more resources than yourself have considered sunspots and have found no scientifically rigorous correlation. Microsoft Excel is a powerful tool with some really great graphing functions which apparently you&#039;ve put to good [figuratively] use. It just helps to know what the heck you&#039;re graphing with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8230;The energy difference is divided by a constant, 4000, to get a value close to the temperature anomalies and an offset, 0.4, is subtracted to move the plot to overlay the measured anomalies&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Are you just scaling and shifting functions arbitrarily so that random data fits some sort of average temperature graph?</p>
<p>If so, how have you come to the conclusion that this is mathematically appropriate? What are the units of your coefficients (and what do they imply)?</p>
<p>What has the first law of thermodynamics got to do with anything? It&#8217;s not as though the Earth and its atmosphere are closed systems from an energy standpoint (which would nullify your argument that we should consider the first law of thermodynamics [essentially the conservation of energy]). </p>
<p>Finally, you keep mentioning a time-integral of sunspots. What specifically are you integrating with respect to time? Number of sunspots? What are the final units? Why would we expect sunspots to have a cumulative effect on the Earth&#8217;s atmosphere? (The effect would have to cumulative if you&#8217;re integrating over time).</p>
<p><i>This</i> engineer thinks you don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re on about.</p>
<p><i>Tens of billions of dollars have been spent in futile efforts to prove that added CO2 caused Global Warming while an unpaid </i>[crackpot]<i> engineer has discovered what really caused the temperature run-up in the 20th century.</i></p>
<p>This right here sums it up. Organizations with infinitely more resources than yourself have considered sunspots and have found no scientifically rigorous correlation. Microsoft Excel is a powerful tool with some really great graphing functions which apparently you&#8217;ve put to good [figuratively] use. It just helps to know what the heck you&#8217;re graphing with it.</p>
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		<title>By: S2</title>
		<link>http://www.sindark.com/2009/07/28/hfcs-and-climate-change/#comment-83983</link>
		<dc:creator>S2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sindark.com/?p=6056#comment-83983</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;A least squares line fit to the separation data reveals that this separation has been growing at an average rate of about 2% per year since 2000.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Would you like to post your data, or at least quote your sources so that I can check them? Could you please also include your standard deviation estimates?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>A least squares line fit to the separation data reveals that this separation has been growing at an average rate of about 2% per year since 2000.</p></blockquote>
<p>Would you like to post your data, or at least quote your sources so that I can check them? Could you please also include your standard deviation estimates?</p>
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